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Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Magna Carta For The Web By Tim Berners-Lee (Video)

Comments (0) | Wednesday, August 27, 2014

You mean it wasn't Al Gore? (^_~)

On Aug 25, 2014, at 3:07 AM, Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com> wrote:

> Phillip Emegwali once told us that he invented the WWW.
>
> Wonders will never end.
>
> Cheers.
>
> IBK
>
> On 23 Aug 2014 20:14, "Chidi Anthony Opara" <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Sir Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web 25 years ago. So it's worth a listen when he warns us: There's a battle ahead. Eroding net neutrality, filter bubbles and centralizing corporate control all threaten the web's wide-open spaces. It's up to users to fight for the right to access and openness. The question is, what kind of Internet do we want?"
>
>
>
> Link: http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_berners_lee_a_magna_carta_for_the_web?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2014-08-23&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_content=bottom_right_button
>
>
> --
> Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet and Publisher of PublicInformationProjects
>
>
>
> --
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RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Comments (0) | Tuesday, August 26, 2014

Ken makes a persuasive case.

What is true too is that there are few self-acknowledging liberals who claim they are perfect. All perspectives are indeed constructed. The liberal perspective warts and all, seems to me to be less injurious to society than the conservative perspective that more or less undermines or denies the dignity and equal humanness of the poor and the weak, opposes policies that could enrich their lives, and encourages the development and support of policies that make their lives more difficult.  Liberals can be patronizing. They to me, should be preferable to conservatives who are less tolerant of the equality of all members of their community.

 

oa  

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:33 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

 

i think there is one quality of the liberal which matters--not the politics, per se; not even the avuncular attitude (which i fear adopting, especially at my age). no, there is one reason why it gets under my skin, as moses says, to be thought of as a liberal, one quality of the liberal which is, as moses says, in a way worse than all those other qualities cited from the really violent, powerful, and dangerous types listed by ogugua and gloria so well.
it is that the liberal espouses and purveys an epistemology, call it a world view if you like, that presents itself as naturally the only possible, only correct, only virtuous one. it is a world-view built on enlightenment values that derive from a european world perspective, but which sees itself as universal, and is, ideologically, blind to its own constructedness and to its own ethnocentricity
it is the dominant, naturalized, normalized doctrines of the west; the one that says, say to africans, be civilized like us.
or worse,it says: i understand you, but if you were better educated you'd understand your weaknesses and become like us.

it is the inevitable pattern that colonialism had deployed, a paternalism, that came to dominate all disciplines in the academy, and which mudimbe would describe as inevitably inscribed on all those who enter into modernity, african or european. it is all there in his Invention of AFrica and Idea of Africa. it is not a mystery!

i imagine another way to think about values, and i put it in my book Trash; i imagine a perspective of values that looks at the world from a different place on the hierarchy of values--a place i call from below, but it is only "below" in relation to the dominant ideological position. not on any absolute scale at all. to the contrary!

it isn't simply a question, then, of african or european, as is so often represented in our list, but of dominant versus alternative or progressive or oppositional, although the more dominant is present, even in opposition, the more it frames the epistemology. so we need to take a more radical stance, one that espouses something so buried in the barrels of worthlessness in the eyes of dominant ideology, that it can free us from the oppressive structures of thought. it has to be trash. i don't see any other way.

i hope that makes small sense as to how i see myself in radical opposition to liberalism, even as i prefer its humanism to the ugliness of those who advocate "state terrorism" or its enemies, the boko harams and isis types.
but i don't want its humanism to dupe me. if i did, if we did, we'd have to accept the rest: its epistemology, and inevitably, its notions of superior and inferior, with all that that implies.
ken


On 8/26/14 4:08 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu wrote:

Agreed, OA, agreed. No argument here. It's a no brainer, as the Americans would say. But the way I see it is that there are already so many people taking on the "white, equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves." I would rather direct my critical energy towards the beloved figure of the benign paternal white liberal, who tries to humanize us (unlike his (neo)conservative brethren) but often does so by inadvertently robbing us of our rational agency and personhood (warts and all) and instead ascribes all that is wrong with us to external, European forces. It is my job to sometimes say to them, Africans are capable of evil, too--that we are just like everybody else, with a mixture of good, bad, and in-betweens, and that we don't need too much cuddling and protection.

 

On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:

MEO,

What about the white , equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves. They are my favorite bogeymen.

oa


-----Original Message-----
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:33 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

To be honest Ochonu, I prefer the white avuncular, do-good liberal any day to the callous, conceited, pro-eugenics, neo-con bigots who would wipe out half of humanity with a virus progrom - in a flash.

G


________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Moses Ebe Ochonu [meochonu@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 10:03 AM
To: USAAfricaDialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Ken,

Actually, to "self-righteous" (your word), I would add naive as another adjective to describe my favorite boogeyman, the white avuncular, do-good liberal.

But seriously, I'm puzzled by your invocation of Soyinka here. Have you actually read what Soyinka has been saying about Boko Haram and about violent Islamist groups over the years? His view on the subject does not align with your expansive and extrapolatory reading of The Man Died at all. Maybe he evolved, maybe he is, like most of us, keenly aware of the evil, intolerance, and murderous hate which reside in the minds of many humans and how such evil is justified with ideology and religious fever. He is, of course, not very kind to Christian extremists, but over the last twenty years, his views on Islamic extremism, especially of the violent variety, has been consistently unsparingly strident. Why do you think he got a death sentence/fatwa placed on him a few years ago? He offered a scathing assessment of Boko Haram, and the group threatened him with death. So, I doubt that Soyinka would look at Boko Haram members in the way you suggested. He has called them, rightly in my opinion, murderous brutes whose ideology does not belong to and is incompatible with Nigeria's (and the world's) de facto ecumenism.

I know you want to find meaning and humanity in and beneath everything. Sometimes it is offensive to do so, no matter how noble the intent may be. Sometimes I wish you understood Hausa. Why? So that I will send you links to some of Shekau's youtube videos (I'm still depressed from the one released yesterday). Without rehashing its grisly details, I believe firmly that if you listened to and understood (preferably in the Hausa/Kanuri original) two of Shekau's video rants and watched the footage that accompany them, you'd be scared out of this naive assumption that everyone is a valuable Other who should be reasoned with--you'd be scared into a sober acknowledgement of the fact that there are gradations of evil and aggression and that some people's ideology and modus operandi do not entitle them to the dignity of sympathetic understanding. Understanding, yes (I write on the need for that myself). Sympathetic understanding and empathy, no!


On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>> wrote:
to lend more fire to your claims, gloria, how was the west "won," in the u.s., if not by the sword and the glory of god giving us the divine right, the manifest destiny. don't you think putin took the crimea back because god gave it to russia, and krushchev just sold it down the river. the examples are endless. we are dealing with humans who take what they can by force, and ALWAYS justify it on some higher principle.
it is enough to be very discouraged in human kind.
i like soyinka's world view, to look in the face of the other, the one who died that dawn on the road, and to see in it one's brother, oneself boko harem is really scary these days, but in fact, they too are the ones soyinka is seeing on the road. and if we can't quite get there, then what makes our rationalization any better than others'?
moses would rightly accuse the self-righteous liberal as saying i accept everyone, and those who aren't like me have to be forced to see things my way.
enough for now
ken

On 8/25/14 10:01 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them.  Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing  mind. He would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050
africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [corneliushamelberg@gmail.com<mailto:corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient


Professor Harrow,

  Nice try but no cigar.  As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"

Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.

There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>

However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?

The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:

"We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."

Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...

Holy mother of god!

And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"




On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
hi cornelius
it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
is that right, cornelius?
so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.

is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
ken
On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:

A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/   The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas)  reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies  - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading  Claude's version, since  Jesus is not one of my priorities.

However,  this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and  drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem,  " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?

Only asking

We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>


On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice between Jesus and a murderer called Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the elders (Matthew 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matthew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed to Jesus' cross (John 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBrown198893-217> then scourges Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before taking him to Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>

When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.

it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
i know that wasn't really central to  your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
ken

On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
  It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
                    08024670952

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
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--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
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room C-614 wells hall
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michigan state university
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east lansing, mi 48824
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Read More......

RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Comments (0) |

I got you SO.
It seems to me that if God is what/who he is believed to be in monotheist cultures- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient among others, it must be a stretch for any human being to subject the claims about God by those who believe in him, to human logic and reason. That to me would be to judge God when all one needs to do is dispute the claims and act accordingly if it was necessary to do so.
You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.
You state " If he (God) knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone." I will argue that God had to create other people as it would not be possible to "to love the Israelites more" if He created the Israelites only. There would be no people to love less. God had to create other people therefore if He was "to love the Israelites more".
The Hebrew Bible says for example that God spoke with Abraham, Lot, Noah, Job, and Moses. Just as no one knows for sure whether or not He did, everyone is free to believe or not that He did or did not. Should anyone be emphatic on what they believe or not? That is not my call. I could go on.

oa

-----Original Message-----
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:43 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Cc: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

My dear AO,
I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites. Human beings apportioned lands to themselves wherever they go and used the name of God to rubber-stamp the claim of ownership.
What happened to Abram in Ur of Chaldea was an economic disaster that affected pastoralists of the region. Their animals were dying because there was no rain. So as a reasonable entrepreneur he quickly ran away from the scene of danger. Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land? It does sound to reason.
What would you say if the Yoruba go to an Igbo community and say God has given their land to them? You are making God to be the source of conflict and war. Is that what one should believe?
Those who wrote the Bible did so from their narrow and parochial interests without considering the moral implications of their views.
Secondly, God did not choose any tribe as his own. Let me tell you that the event that Moses recorded couldn't be something that happened during his lifetime. Moses was born in Egypt when his people were slaves. They were slaves there for about 430 years. Moses did not know Abram/Abraham. It was after they left Egypt that he wrote the Pentateuch.
On a moral ground, to say that God loves a tribe or a nation more than the rest of the world is to make him an immoral Being. If he knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone.
More importantly, to say that the Jews are beloved by God more than Africans and rest of the world is to create hatred for the Jews wherever they are.
How many Africans were involved in the canonization of the Bible? It was done by a handful white Bishops. What if the Bible were canonized by Africans? Do you think it would be the way it is? They would have removed various parts of the Bible to suit their interest.
God by definition cannot be a Being of immorality, injustice, conflicts and wars.
Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:50 PM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>
> "God at no time gave anyone a piece of land anywhere."
>
> SO
>
> Why is SO emphatically sure? Is he suggesting that the Genesis account in the Hebrew Bible that states God pulled Abraham from Ur in the Chaldees to a new land God set out for him and his descendants is not true? Is he suggesting the dispossession of Canaanites' of their land by Israelites was not carrying out God's will because the land was a gift to then by God? Is SO debunking the claims of some Muslim Jihadists to parts of the world they call Muslim lands- Caliphates? Does SO not know that a "chosen people" are entitled to a divine gift of some other people's land- promised land? My goodness!! Until God speaks, we do not know for sure.
> More seriously, land grabbers will always find excuses and other pretexts to practice their trades of greed and exclusion. The pilgrim fathers (U.S.) and the pioneer Dutch settlers of the Cape region of South Africa claimed that the settled lands they occupied were God's gift to them. Israel was established as a Jewish state. Many orthodox Jews in today's Israel continue to claim God gave them the land of Palestine. Many Hindus insist that India is a Hindu and not a secular country. ISIS is following a well-travelled road. Why not one may ask?
>
> oa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun
> Ogungbemi
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:12 AM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
> Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
> God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
> God never called anyone for anything.
>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
> 08024670952
>
>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of
>> the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe
>> belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed
>> fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire
>> to take it from them and give it to us."CH
>>
>>
>> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
>>
>> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to
>> stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?
>>
>> Empire builders have a lot in common.
>>
>> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He
>> would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
>> CT 06050
>> africahistory.net
>> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
>> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
>> [corneliushamelberg@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>>
>>
>> Professor Harrow,
>>
>> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
>>
>> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
>>
>> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The
>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE5
>> 4
>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Gi
>> n
>> zberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.
>> 2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
>>
>> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?
>>
>> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
>>
>> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>>
>> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
>>
>> Holy mother of god!
>>
>> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
>> hi cornelius
>> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
>> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
>> is that right, cornelius?
>> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>>
>> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
>> ken
>> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>
>> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.
>>
>> However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
>> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>>
>> Only asking
>>
>> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
>> dear segun
>> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
>> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>>
>> Taking Jesus to Pilate's
>> Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish
>> elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus,
>> accusing him of claiming to be the King of the
>> Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207
>> > The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between
>> Jesus and Pilate. In John
>> 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Joh
>> n #18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he
>> does not unequivocally deny being the King of the
>> Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<htt
>> p ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke
>> 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/L
>> u ke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes
>> under the jurisdiction of Herod
>> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENi
>> s
>> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-
>> wonger1992172-213>F
>> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to
>> Herod to be
>> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECart
>> e r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response
>> to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an
>> expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to
>> Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENis
>> w
>> onger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and
>> announces that he has "not found this man
>> guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECa
>> r
>> ter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>
>>
>> Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner
>> chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice
>> between Jesus and a murderer called
>> Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the
>> elders (Matthew
>> 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Mat
>> t hew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify
>> Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlom
>> b erg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus
>> of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as
>> INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed
>> to Jesus' cross (John
>> 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Joh
>> n
>> #19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEB
>> r
>> own198893-217> then scourges
>> Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends
>> him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of
>> Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head
>> and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before
>> taking him to
>> Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikiped
>> i a.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for
>> crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNO
>> T
>> EEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesu
>> s
>> #cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cit
>> e
>> _note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>
>>
>> When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.
>>
>> it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
>> i know that wasn't really central to your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
>> ken
>>
>> On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
>> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
>> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
>> No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
>> The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
>> It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
>> Paul was against philosoot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
>> The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
>> It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
>> Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
>> Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
>> One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.
>>
>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
>> Professor of Philosophy
>> Adekunle Ajasin University
>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
>> Nigeria
>> Cellphone: 08033041371
>> 08024670952
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
>> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
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